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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 18, 2016 22:08:00 GMT -8
Thinking about it, I think we have this set up way too heavily in Town's favor right now. We're running this under the assumption that the Town Item Vendors will give items to Scum and Town equally, when it's way more likely that they will end up giving items to Town over Scum unless Scum is hiding super well.
...what if we made the Back-Up a Neutral? They win when they give out all of their items, also balances out a game sided with Town by giving number advantages to Scum. Keep the Serial Killer as well.
Thinking of getting rid of the back up items as well. When the vendors are out, they're out. Would also play into the second one being a Neutral.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 18, 2016 22:17:28 GMT -8
Item Vendor:
1. 2-shot Doublevoter 2. Bomb 3. 2-shot Name Cop Back-Up Item Vendor:1. 1-shot BP 2. 1-shot Tracker 3. 1-shot Switcher With Back-ups being: 2-shot Mailman ( it's garbled ) 1-shot Redirect 1-shot Commuter 1-shot Jailer Roles:Town:Celebrity Item Vendor Back-Up Item Vendor Doctor Mason 1 Mason 2 Watcher 9 Ordinary Mafia:Roleblock Ninja ( 3 shot ) 2 Goons Neutral:Ascetic Serial Killer Thief Hmm. Take out the Doublevoter and put in a 1-shot BP instead? And then put the Redirect where the BP used to be? Actually, no. Take out the Doublevoter and put the Tracker there instead? Jailer is sort-of an inferior item. You end up both Roleblocking someone and protecting them at the same time, meaning if they picked the wrong individual they could end up saving them from a kill and they could inadvertently stop a Town PR ( like the real Doctor ). Same with Switcher, since that usually causes more headaches but I do see where you're going with that since a good Switcher can be highly effective... So; Item Vendor:1. 1-shot BP or Tracker 2. Bomb 3. 2-shot Name Cop Back-Up Item Vendor:1. 1-shot Redirect 2. 2-shot Mailman ( garbled ) 3. 1-shot Switcher or Jailer? With Back-ups being:1-shot Tracker 1-shot Commuter 1-shot Jailer 1-shot Hider? For the new page
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 18, 2016 22:53:59 GMT -8
What if we did:
Roles:
Town: Celebrity Item Vendor Doctor Lover 1 Lover 2 Watcher 10 Ordinary
Mafia: Roleblock Ninja ( 2 shot ) Goon
Neutral: Ascetic Serial Killer Thief Back-Up Item Vendor ( maybe start them as a Survivor since it's possible, though unlikely, the normal Vendor can be roleblocked until the end of the game and never lose their items )
Item Vendor:
1. 1-shot BP 2. Bomb ( basically travelling poison ) 3. 2-shot Name Cop
Back-Up Item Vendor: theme being 'good intentions, not so good execution'
1. 1-shot Redirect 2. 1-shot Voyeur ( info role but is the weakest info role and is fairly useless late-game ) 3. 2-shot Mailman ( garbled )
With Back-ups extra ideas being:
1-shot Treestump ( removes that persons' power to vote ) 1-shot Tracker 1-shot Commuter 1-shot Jailer 1-shot Hider
Possibly thinking of making the first Item Vendor only 2 items ( BP and Name Cop ) to make the Neutral Vendor easier for the Win condition and then giving the Bomb to the Back-Up as the first item so we can fit with that theme of 'inferior' vendor.
Town Wins when they remove all threats ( so Scum + SK, not the Back-Up )
Scum Wins when they become 50% of the vote and the SK is dead
Serial Killer wins when they are the last player standing.
Back-Up wins when they vend all of their items ( will leave the game early if they do ) or they live until End Game.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 18, 2016 22:54:40 GMT -8
Do we want people to be able to use items the same Night they receive them or have them wait until the following Night Phase? I'm thinking following Night Phase.
Actually...we could also drop the Thief part from the Serial Killer. None of the items we have benefit a Serial Killer at all so that would be useless for them to do. If we did that we could give the Thief to Scum and have all 3 of their members be a PR to balance out having a small team.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 18, 2016 22:58:30 GMT -8
We should also have the Vendors sport their true names
Compulsive Celebrity Item Vendor Compulsive Back-Up Survivor Item Vendor
because the long names are very amusing and they are technically true. they must vend each night, the Town one can reveal themselves and the Neutral one is a Survivor.
i mostly want to do it because i think it's funny
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Dec 19, 2016 23:03:28 GMT -8
What if we did: Roles:Town:Celebrity Item Vendor Doctor Lover 1 Lover 2 Watcher 10 Ordinary Mafia:Roleblock Ninja ( 3 shot ) Thief ( either steal or use item, cannot steal if they have an item, stealing from a vendor fails ) Neutral:Ascetic Serial Killer Back-Up Item Vendor ( maybe start them as a Survivor since it's possible, though unlikely, the normal Vendor can be roleblocked until the end of the game and never lose their items ) Item Vendor:1. 1-shot BP 2. 2-shot Name Cop Back-Up Item Vendor: theme being 'good intentions, not so good execution'1. Bomb ( explodes the 3rd night it's given out) 2. 1-shot Redirect 3. 2-shot Mailman ( garbled ) Possibly thinking of making the first Item Vendor only 2 items ( BP and Name Cop ) to make the Neutral Vendor easier for the Win condition and then giving the Bomb to the Back-Up as the first item so we can fit with that theme of 'inferior' vendor. Town Wins when they remove all threats ( so Scum + SK, not the Back-Up ) Scum Wins when they become 50% of the vote and the SK is dead Serial Killer wins when they are the last player standing. Back-Up wins when they vend all of their items ( will leave the game early if they do ) or they live until End Game. Implemented some of your suggestions. Made the Ninja 3-shot to buff Mafia. Item rules: -Cannot use the same night they receive it -If they have a PR, either they use their PR or use the item -Can a player receive more than one item (say, Thief is gifted an item the same night they steal one?) I think it might be okay since they can only use one a night. But vendors must choose different targets and cannot self-target.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Dec 19, 2016 23:06:28 GMT -8
Items: -Items have names (Hookshot is a commuting item, for example). -The vendors do not know what they are giving out. Backup Vendor thinks his items are just as good as the regular Item Vendor.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Dec 19, 2016 23:06:56 GMT -8
I think if this is good then we can start working on names, setting, flavour, etc.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 20, 2016 0:40:37 GMT -8
Looks good. I'm a little worried Scum is under-powered but I think that may just be because it's a 3-man team in a 20-player game which is fairly small? I think it should still work...
Items rules are good, I updated the Doc so everything should be good to go there. I do think that players should only have 1 item and that's it. If the Thief steals an item and is given an item the same Night then whatever has the higher priority should be the one they recieve while the other is left where it is. I only say that because I feel it should just be a universal rule for the Items and Scum can't be the exception. If a player received the 1-shot BP from the first Item Vendor they shouldn't be able to stack their items if the Second Vendor gives them another one, since then we would have a BP Redirect, which is protection from 2 NKs and a little crazy.
The bomb is the exception since we aren't really counting it towards the 'Item' count. 3 Nights until it explodes sounds fine with me. Do we want it to be able to be given to the SK? They are Ascetic so they technically shouldn't be able to be targeted but if someone tried to pass the Bomb to them then I'm not sure what would happen. I think we should allow players to pass it to them.
Also...how did we want protections for the Bomb to work? If the Doctor protects the person who has the Bomb the Night it explodes are they safe? What if Scum/SK kill the person who gets passed the Bomb before it's set to explode, do we want it to just harmlessly detonate or keep traveling? What if the person who has the bomb gets lynched?
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 20, 2016 1:04:13 GMT -8
Bomb Rules:
- Explodes 3 Night Phases after it is handed out. There is no indication given to Players when it will explode or what will happen when it does. ( N1 - > End of N3? ) (( if so, would that mean whoever is passed the Bomb on N3 dies without them knowing why? )) - Does not count towards Items Held - Can be passed to any player ( including the SK ) - IF the player with the Bomb is lynched, the Bomb is removed from the game - IF the player who receives the Bomb is also killed the same Night Phase, the Bomb is removed from the game ( Player X passes it to Player Y, Player Y is targeted by Scum that same Night. bye bye bomb ) - IF the Doctor protects the Player who has the Bomb the Night it explodes, they will not die. Same goes for BP. - IF the Player with the Redirect is targeted to receive the Bomb, they do not receive it, their shot is used up, and the Bomb is given to a different Player.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 20, 2016 1:09:35 GMT -8
Also, how do we want to garble the Mailman? Th? H?rry P?tt?r m?th?d? Run it through Google Translate a few times? Replace every 3 or 4 words with a set word?
I'm partial to Google Translate but I guess it depends on how legible we want the letters to be in the end.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 20, 2016 1:52:33 GMT -8
Some ideas straight in from flavor town.
Everyone is a named character, let's go full cosplay game. Scum and the Neutrals will be given safe fake claim names. Having characters not be what people expect them to is also something I think we should try and aim for. I do think we need to keep that Town is clearly the good guys and Scum is clearly bad guys so the Name Cop isn't worthless, but Link doesn't have to be a PR and stuff like that works.
Overall theme of the game? We could either try for a whole connecting sort-of plot that vaguely explains why everyone is together or we can go 'nothing is truly connected but here's flavor anyway'. I did have this silly idea that the setting/theme be the Goddesses are getting tired and decided to have a final test to see which side is truly worthy of the Triforce by pulling in characters from different times/places to play a game. This game represents all 3 aspects of the Triforce ( Wisdom, Power, and Courage ) and the winners of it need to use each aspect in order to outsmart the others and win. The game is just a game of mafia ( hilarious, i know ) but it would be a setting to run with. So...not really going for something totally serious here. What about you? You are writing the Day/Night flavor so I feel like this should be up to you. o:
Town: Celebrity Item Vendor - Doctor - Great Fairy? Lover's - Zelda/Shiek or Young/Adult Link/Zelda. I really liked your idea from earlier and I think we should keep it. Watcher - 10 Ordinary ( no idea here, maybe just little characters here and there? Have each Ordinary be a different Link from a different game? )
Mafia: Roleblock - The Imprisoned from Skyward Sword? flavor being you break out of your prison again so the target player stops what they were doing and has to seal you away. again. for the 3rd time. im being sarcastic about the flavor but you get the point Ninja ( 3 shot ) - Thief ( either steal or use item, cannot steal if they have an item, stealing from a vendor fails ) - Ganondorf works but is fairly obvious, Ingo also works here since he does 'steal' Talon's ranch in OoT. Or we could be really on the nose and have it be Blind the Thief ( aLttP ), the Scum Thief. :p
Neutral: Ascetic Serial Killer - Tingle was the original idea but Skull Kid works too. Back-Up Item Vendor - Ravio from A Link Between Worlds. Good intentions as he tried to be the Hero but failed in doing so and is just trying to survive and get by. The Goron who sets up shop in OoT who sells you the shitty Bigoron Sword works too since his items are terrible.
Item Vendor: 1. 1-shot BP - Fairy in a Bottle 2. 2-shot Name Cop - Lens of Truth/Mask of Truth.
Back-Up Item Vendor: theme being 'good intentions, not so good execution'
1. Bomb ( explodes the 3rd night it's given out) - Bombchu? 2. 1-shot Redirect - Mirror Shield? 3. 2-shot Mailman ( garbled ) - Damaged/Worn/Slightly Used Postman's Hat from Majora's Mask
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 21, 2016 15:41:38 GMT -8
Ran the set-up by Ouro just to get another opinion on everything and work out a few extras like Win Conditions and such. Moved a Townie and gave it to Scum as a Goon so it's a little more balanced, making the game a 14-4-2. If Scum never get killed/lynched they can win after N5, earlier if the Lovers get murdered. Everything else is looking good though so it looks like it's time to pretty everything up. c:
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Dec 22, 2016 14:08:45 GMT -8
Updating the Google doc.
I thought kills always resolved last?
If the Celebrity Vendor doesn't quit before D3, then at the start of D3 he automatically quits, but without the celebrity announcement, right?
Redirect: choose one player. All actions targeting that player target you instead. (You think it works the other way). Blurry Mirror Shield.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Dec 22, 2016 14:21:20 GMT -8
Haha I like the idea of the Goron from OoT that sells you the Biggoron Sword/Giant's Knife. I kind of want to put that in the game now: you get a 2-shot vig kill but on the second night it misfires and kills you/someone else.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Dec 22, 2016 14:29:30 GMT -8
Celebrity Item Vendor - Happy Mask Salesman Doctor - Oddly Attractive Great Fairy Lover - Zelda Lover - Sheik Watcher - OoT Owl Ordinary - Philips CD-i Link Ordinary - OoT Young Link Ordinary - OoT Adult Link Ordinary - TWW Toon Link Ordinary - Wolf Link Ordinary - Groose Ordinary - Wii U Demo Link (or SpaceWorld 2000 Demo Link) Ordinary - Right-handed Link Ordinary - Breath of the Wild Link Mafia ( 4 Total ) Roleblock - Imprisoned 3-shot Ninja - Pig Ganon (it's ironic) Thief - Blind the Thief Goon - Zant (more like pawn am I right) Neutral ( 2 Total ) Ascetic Serial Killer - Tingle Back-Up Survivor Item Vendor - Ravio
Fake claims: Female Link Marin Midna Darunia Navi
Also added some fake claims for neutrals
Maybe we need more Links because late-game it may become kind of obvious the naming theme of the ordinaries.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Dec 22, 2016 14:38:38 GMT -8
Will definitely go for silly flavour.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 23, 2016 18:37:43 GMT -8
Not suuuper sure on how it goes for Night Actions being resolved but Ouro sent me the link ( heh ) to the 'running a mafia game' basics so I'll take a look there.
And yes. Since the Celebrity doesn't know how many items they give out ( or what they are ) they essentially have to balance saving themselves and possibly losing items or keep going and just never be 100% confirmed. I think we should allude to that in the role PM ( "when you run out of items you will become Ordinary but will it will not be announced" ) or something like that, maybe even more vague. But i don't think we should just throw that at them out of the blue with no warning.
Edit: Updated the priority list going off of the list in the guide. Might need to change that PRs have priority over Items since that would make the Redirect useless.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 23, 2016 18:45:44 GMT -8
I also like that Sword idea, have it be a risk-reward kinda thing. We could always remove the Bomb and put that in place instead as the first item.
Redirect I like that much more than it being totally random, although I'm not sure if anyone would use it with that wording since they would just be taking a hit for someone and not many people want to do that. That would also mean a role PM is lying to someone so we would jump this game up in the bastard/crazy scale pretty fast. What if we did say directly that 'if anything targets you this Night Phase, it targets X instead' and they can pick who X is.
Speaking of which, x-shots. If a player uses one of their shots and it say misses or doesn't activate ( like they use the 1-shot redirect but nobody targets them that Night Phase ) do we want to refund them the shot? Same thing with being Roleblocked since they don't really use their shot despite sending in the command to do so. I'm thinking no refunds? Make it so that whoever gets an x-shot role they have to choose when they want to use it and when not to use it, almost like a puzzle. ( GASP ) :p
Edi: Should clarify to say any active Items with shots. Like our 1-shot BP is passive, they don't need to send a command for that to work, but the 1-shot Redirect needs a command in order to 'work'.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 23, 2016 18:52:30 GMT -8
Extra Links: Pink-Haired Link ( aLttp ) Red Link Blue Link Purple Link Hero's Shade ( dead OoT Link who shows up as a spooky ghost in TP ) Super Smash Bros. Link Train Conductor Link ( Spirit Tracks ) Hero of the Minish ( Minish Cap )
Can also go by any of his titles instead of names:
although i've never heard 'Hero of Trains' so I think wikipedia may be lying to me.
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 23, 2016 20:55:35 GMT -8
Running through the numbers again real fast too make sure everything is perfectly balancedâ„¢
14 Town. 4 Mafia. 2 Neutral.
In a worse-case scenario with both kills always hitting and mislynches on Town only:
Start of Day 1: 14 Town. 4 Mafia. 2 Neutral.
Start of Day 2: 11 Town. 4 Mafia 2 Neutral.
Start of Day 3: 8 Town. 4 Mafia. 2 Neutral.
Start of Day 4: 5 Town. 4 Mafia. 2 Neutral.
Start of Day 5: 2 Town. 4 Mafia. 2 Neutral. ( Scum does not win here, they only have 50% when they need >50% to win )
Start of Day 6: 0 Town. 4 Mafia. 2 Neutral. Mafia Win.
IF the Lovers die this would just end the game at the end of Day 5 since Mafia would control over 50% of the vote and even if the SK did kill a member of the Mafia it would not do anything to change the >50% since it would be 3 Maf vs 2 neutral.
This would only be 4 or 5 Night Phases in play so the Neutral Vendor wouldn't get all items out ( fine since they are a Survivor as well ) but the Bomb wouldn't have time to go off either. Keep things as-is or remove the Bomb? If we did replace the Bomb with that 2-shot Vig kill do you want to remove the SK as well since that could theoretically end the game a lot sooner?
As-is the game can end fairly quickly and Town have a pretty uphill fight fighting against 6 Non-Town players ( arguably 5 players since the Survivor isn't inherently malicious ) but I don't think we have anything glaringly wrong right now...?
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 26, 2016 13:04:58 GMT -8
Hope you had a wonderful Holiday, LP! c:
Just wanted to let you know I'll be leaving on vacation starting this Wednesday and I won't have access to a PC until late on Monday the 2nd. I'll have my phone on me but there isn't a whole lot I can do from that when it comes to posting here or changing stuff in the Doc. Discord will probably be the best way we can talk so if we need to work things out we can use that.
I'm going to be letting Retro know so we can figure out when to start sign-ups and stuff ( because starting next week on Thursday would be perfect ) but nothing is really 100% just yet.
The main things we need to do now is just figure out what to do with our Bomb and then making Role PMs. For the Role PMs how do we want to go about that? Am I writing them, are you writing them, or do we want to split it up to make things easier? I'm not sure who normally makes them?? I know you're the flavor guy but I don't know if role pms fall under your domain. I'm totally fine with making them all and getting that all done but I didn't know if you had any ideas for those or were planning on doing them.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Dec 27, 2016 22:22:54 GMT -8
Problem with the Sword is that it's an extra kill and if scum gets it (via vendor or thief) then they essentially have an extra kill even if it's random. Bomb is kind of complicated though... may have to revisit that grey area we mentioned before.
There was something else I thought of but it's not coming to me at the moment.
I'll probably get the role PM's written up sometime this week.
Have a good vacation. Didn't you already go to Disneyland twice this year? c:
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Post by Sawneeks on Dec 29, 2016 23:34:55 GMT -8
Going with that then we should probably remove the bomb too. It's not explicitly going to say "if you give this to someone they will die" but it's going to be heavily implied. So if Scum did get it before it went off then they would also get an extra kill through it. They just wouldn't know when and it might get sent back to them. So it's less... Certain than a Vig shot but it's still possible.
Technically 3 times? Disneyland twice and went to Disneyworld for the first time over summer. :p
No Scum Mountain this time though. Just visiting family in northern California for New Years.
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Post by Sawneeks on Jan 1, 2017 10:52:57 GMT -8
Happy New Year LP! Hope you had a good day! c:
Retro sent me a message and said we are good to go for sign ups when we're ready. If all is ready to go I'm going to start sign ups tomorrow evening, if not I can push it back but probably sometime this week.
Everything looks pretty good though? My only hesitation is the bomb because it adds another random kill in a kill heavy game and if it does go off it might be in a lylo situation. Maybe... Replace it? I don't want to because it's a fun idea but it's very swingy in this set up right now. We can always put it another one of our back up ideas instead.
I'll get a banner and everything going tomorrow with sign ups and the thread up once we get that going. Any ideas on the thread title? Also thinking of doing silly opening flavor to get the Ordinary Role PM example in there as well as setting the tone if that works for you. And to top it all off we can kill Ouro in the opening too! Perfect way to start a new year. :p
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Jan 2, 2017 21:18:03 GMT -8
Happy New Year!
Skyward Scum? A Lynch To The Past?
I like the bomb, I agree it's swingy and random and could be quite detrimental late-game, but... it's mid-season and it's been one of our ideas that have made it this far. We could make it be given out earlier or have it explode earlier?
I should have more time this week to write flavour and role PM's and stuff.
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Post by Sawneeks on Jan 2, 2017 22:49:30 GMT -8
Legend of Zelda Mafia |OT| A Lynch To The Past. Has a nice ring to it. c:
We have it exploding after 3 Night phases, yeah? So if someone received it on Night 1 they would be informed of it by the start of Day 2. They pass it on Night 2 and the process repeats...
So if it was given out after the first vendor completely gives out there items that means it enters the game on Night 3. It would explode on Night 5, or MyLo in the perfect scenario...
I mean, it's got a good amount of counters ( it gets removed if the person holding it dies, the vendor dies, if that person gets protected ) but knowing how Gafia luck goes it's going to go off a Night Phase before MyLo and give Scum the win early lol.
...We could give Scum a BP on the Goon? Might help them out too since they can't actually stop the SK unless they kill them. Hm. I'll think on it a bit and maybe bother Ouro again since I really also want to make it work.
I'll get sign-ups going tomorrow afternoon. Not sure when the game will start, maybe this Friday? If you want I can write up some of the role PMs as well if you want to split them. One of us can do Town and the other can do Mafia/Neutral?
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Jan 3, 2017 15:15:15 GMT -8
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Post by Sawneeks on Jan 3, 2017 16:06:30 GMT -8
Looks good LP! I'll add it to the first post. c: Also added a note to the Ascetic SK Role PM slot. Talked to Ouro, the Bomb is super swingy but it works in its' current state since the only real problem is if the game is 'perfect' for Scum, which is fairly rare. We just need to let, or at least hint, to the Ascetic that while they can't be targeted except for a kill they can still receive 'something', aka the Bomb. We should be good to go though! Everything else looks great! Threw an 'Items' section in there as well since when someone receives an item they will get a PM briefly describing what their item does. And since our Ordinaries are of the non-speaking variety I'm going to change a few of the fake claims so they have more Ordinary roles to pick. Also changed 'Wii U Demo Link' to 'Blue Link' so that Red/Purple Links can be used as fake claims without it being 'weird' if there are no actual Four Sword Town Link variants. Logo ( yes? no? ) :
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Post by Lone_Prodigy on Jan 3, 2017 17:13:46 GMT -8
Logo is fine.
Random thought: the Triforce as a JOAT item.
Random thought 2: The Thief would know that there are items in this game. So scum does start with an advantage there.
Random thought 3: Any thieving restrictions? Can't steal from fellow scum? Consecutive stealing? If they stole from a vendor it would fail? Does item usage have priority over stealing? What if the name cop item is used the same night it's stolen?
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