I can see why Sophia decided to make the items be given out in a set pattern rather than random. All of one power could be given out right at the start ( like all investigative roles ) and others could have been given out at the end with no effect ( Masons ) because of RNG. With the way we have our items set up it doesn't look like having an item given out during the early game would really mess things up if it came out in late-game instead. The only exception to this would be the bomb which, if given out around LyLo, could really screw people over depending on who gets it.
But I mean, this is still dependent on a huge number of factors. 1. The Vendor lives until LyLo 2. The bomb hasn't been given out yet 3. who ends up actually getting the bomb.
And this is probably also why Sophia got rid of the RNG of it so things were at least a little more predictable. >.>;;;
Maybe instead of items being given out randomly we have them given out in a set order? We don't tell the Vendors this order of course but it would help us dictate what items go out at what stage of the game.
I'm hoping to get back into the nittygritty details of this game soon too.
The fires of Mafia have been lit within me once again
I'm ready for everything
Reposting this for page 2 so we can get some more ideas around.
Quick refresh since it has been some time since we've really taken a good look at all this...
So far it's a 20 player game with 15 Town, 4 Mafia, and 1 Neutral.
Town is split up with 8 PRs and 7 Ordinary. - Celebrity Item Vendor, Back-Up Item Vendor, Gossip, Doctor, Cop, Day-Action 1-shot, 1-shot BP, and a Tracker/Watcher/Commuter
Mafia is 3 PRs and 1 Goon. -Thief, Tracker/Watcher/BP, Godfather/Strongman, and the Goon who can both perform the Night Faction Kill AND use an Item at the same time.
Neutral is a Serial Killer Thief hybrid. -When they kill someone they have an option to 'loot the body' and steal any item on that person. The current restriction is that they MUST use the Item they loot the following Night Phase.
Item Vendor items are in the Google Doc and are just kind of scattered atm.
A couple of thoughts/concerns/whatever:
We have 2 Thief roles and only 1 item going out per Night Phase. With the current restriction on the Serial Killer I feel like they won't bother to loot the bodies if it takes them away from their Night Kill ability. Similarly, if the Scum Thief steals an item they must then choose to continue stealing or not steal for a Night and use the item they picked. What if we gave Scum the ability to give an item ( that they either receive or steal ) to the Scum Goon? Too overpowered? Also thinking of just reworking the Serial Killer because while the Thief idea is a ton of fun I don't think it would be used in its' current state.
Town feels stacked. Maybe drop the Gossip, or make the Gossip into an Item ( Tetra's Gossip Stone or whatever it was called from Windwaker ) ? Day Command seems a little much as well considering they will have a Celebrity to fill that role and so far we have a Double-vote Item that can be handed out. Not sure what would replace either though.
Give Town the Watcher and Scum the Tracker.
With the amount of BP powers going around I'm thinking of having the Scum Strongman become unlimited. That OR make the Strongman x-shot and add in something extra for the Scum Thief to where if they successfully steal an Item they can either use said item or trash it to give the Strongman more shots. Yes/no?
Did we ever decide on having some players start with items? Would give the Thieves something to get on N1.
Town Cop = Alignment Cop. If we ever decide on a Cop Item just have that be a Name Cop.
Post by Lone_Prodigy on Oct 11, 2016 10:25:09 GMT -8
I wonder if our current setup is too complicated. PiR was already kind of crazy and everyone was vanilla or goon. What if we get a night where the cop investigates the doctor who protects scum who tracks the item vendor while a vanilla with an item uses it on the commuter who's also using an item? I can't remember if we agreed that using an item roleblocks a PR for the night.
Pretty sure we had it set up to where you can only use an Item OR your PR, not both. Unless you were the Scum Goon where you could do the NK and use an item.
But I do agree, it's getting a little crazy. >.>;;
We can either tone down our items or dial back the base PRs a bit. I'm more in favor of toning down the base PRs so our Item Vendor shenanigans still make an impact but I feel like I'm biased since I've grown to love the Vendor idea a lot.
Post by Lone_Prodigy on Oct 12, 2016 9:47:16 GMT -8
I agree about toning down the base PR's instead of the items. Otherwise it's just a standard mafia game with items, and that's no fun.
What I want to keep:
Item Vendor: To compensate for fewer PR's we can give multiple shots to the items. I like the day-quit confirmation too. Backup Item Vendor: I like the inferior items mechanic. Doctor: To counter bomb? One issue I see is if someone reveals they have the bomb and they breadcrumb their target. Then doctor just protects the bomb recipient and it explodes harmlessly. Masons/Lovers: Sheik/Zelda? Young/Adult Link? Mafia roleblocker: Counters item vendor. Thieves: One or more (mafia+neutral). Bomb as separate object: cannot be roleblocked, passing it does not consume night action (whether it's item use or PR), does not count towards item limit (1), explosion can be protected against with commuting or neutral BP.
My only worry would be with the Vendor/Back-Up Vendor and the Masons/Lovers. Depending on how we word the Vendor and Back-Up Vendor PRs they could essentially 'confirm' each other if one was to Roleclaim. We could always leave it ambiguous to what the alignment of the other Vendor is but it's safe to assume a Scum Vendor is unlikely so the two would basically be able to back one another up if necessary. With Masons/Lovers that would essentially be 4 players who could vouch for their other half if they had to and that's a lot of suddenly 'cleared' people.
What about having the chat become a 1-shot Gossip Item that is given out fairly early in the game? And instead replace it with a Town Tracker?
Did we ever decide on having a set order for items btw? I'm for it frankly, would make things easier to balance.
Mafia have a Roleblock and maybe a x-shot Ninja ( to counter Tracker? )?
Neutral be the Thief since it falls more in-line than a Scum Thief? Still need to rethink the whole Ascetic Serial Killer Thief thing but I'm still partial to that idea because it sounds silly.
Doctor is good, especially if we keep the Serial Killer in as well. They could counter the bomb ( and ruin our fun ) but that means the bomb recipient has to claim and also breadcrumb a target and that's all dependent on who gets the bomb and what they want to do with it. So while it's not fun, having the Doc be able to stop the Bomb should be allowed. :c
Post by Lone_Prodigy on Oct 13, 2016 13:52:20 GMT -8
Well I would think that any confirmed players would immediately be targeted by scum. If the Vendor doesn't know there's a backup, no one can confirm the backup. Plus without an actual cop, town needs all the confirmed players they can get.
Vendor flavour could be: "As your business has been most profitable, at any time during the day you can post TIME TO RETIRE TO TERMINA and you will close your shop. You stop distributing items at night and become a confirmed vanilla townie."
Backup flavour: "You are a budding entrepreneur but your competition has better prices, a better reputation, and better hair. As such, you eagerly await your opportunity to take over."
I'm confused about the gossip. Do you want it to be an item, or do you want it entirely out of the game? I think a town tracker is good.
I believe we agreed that items are distributed in a set order. The Vendor only vends and doesn't know what he is giving out.
A 2-shot Ninja?
I'm fine with an Ascetic SK Thief. They can choose to use a stolen item in lieu of their nightly kill. Being Ascetic, they can't be vended an item.
With an unlimited shot Doctor on Town it would still give them a 1 in 4 chance of correctly protecting the right person. Although I didn't really consider that last part, you're right about that. Especially if we are going to specifically word the Vendor and Back-Up Vendor role PMs to where only one of them knows about the other having some more people on the Town side to be trusted might be a better idea.
Having the Vendor PM not mention the Back-Up works for me and the Back-Up PM should state that there is a normal Vendor but not specifically who that is. Do we want to elaborate more on the Back-Up PM about how they become the Vendor or just leave it ambiguous? Like, "You become the Vendor when the Original Vendor is unable to give out items" or "At one point in the game you will become the Vendor, just not now".
I'm not against another chat by the way, in fact I'm all for it. My original worry was that having 2 groups of people who could vouch for one another ( The Vendors and the Masons/Lovers ) would lead to having way too many confirmed Townies all at once but you brought up a really good point with the lack of a Cop making up for it.
So basically either
-Have Masons/Lovers and let the Confirmed Townie count be 3 ( Celebrity Vendor + Masons/Lovers ) or possibly 4 since the Back-Up could theoretically claim and back up the OG Vendor.
-Have a Town Tracker, Another ordinary, add Scum Ninja, and a 1-shot Gossip item put into the Vendor rotation. Confirmed Townies would only be 1 ( Celebrity Vendor ) or possibly 2 with the Back-Up. Gossips won't be confirmed with their alignments so they would never be able to 100% confirm one another.
If we went with the Masons/Lovers I'd say keep the Scum Ninja out ( since we would have no Tracker ) and put a Scum Strongman in to counter the Doc instead.
Hm, actually even with the Masons/Lovers we could still throw in the Town Tracker for good measure. I'm re-doing the Google Doc and currently we are sitting with only 3 Town PRs ( Vendor, Back-Up, Doc ) with the same 15 Town, 4 Mafia, 1 Neutral split we had earlier.
If we did keep the Masons/Lovers in and had a Tracker would you prefer a Ninja or a Strongman for the Scum Team? Personally leaning on either 2-shot Ninja or a 2-shot Strongman and a Town Sleepwalker ( to slightly hinder the Town Tracker ).
Preferably yes. It can be pushed back later if need be though, so don't worry too much about that if you need to run #PopGafia instead.
Would you be good with aiming for a 7.5 'launch window' for the game though? If not I'm going to start working on a Power Rangers mafia idea I had but I need to know what you will be good for so I can prioritize. o:
"Did we say 7.5? Hahaha, we actually meant 8.5! It was our plan all along.....yeah. Please be excited for Zelda Mafia: Switch Edition. "
Well, if 7.5 is still our plan we still have around 2 months until we need anything really completed? Unless Retro wants something earlier, but I'm not sure if there is a time frame set up for the mid-season stuff quite yet lol.
The main thing we really still need to figure out is Items, after that it's all balancing and re-balancing and figuring out the rest of the roles.
I'm going to take a look at the Mafia Scum Wiki and make a list of roles and modifiers again to see what items we could use with the new 'less crazy' set-up.
If everything went smoothly then this adds up to about 7 Night Phases covered with items being able to be given out. Since most games usually don't get that far I figured it would be better to have too many items then end up having not enough.
For the normal Item Vendor I tried finding abilities that would work if Scum got them, hence the Name Cop over an Alignment Cop since Scum can use this to find certain 'characters' and kill based on that and the same idea went into the Tracker.
Back-Up I tried to think of abilities that were still 'neutral' but leaned more to the obstruction route since this is our 'inferior' Vendor. I'm not sure if this is the right Mafia term for it, but a 1-shot Redirect would basically redirect whatever was targeting them ( Kill, Cop, Doc, etc. ) on to someone else through RNG. Switchers are just annoying in general so that's why it's there.
- Having an item, maybe replacing Redirect, that just gives a player a Negative attribute and a power. Like having a Weak Cop, Hated Doublevoter, or a Loud Doctor.
- Replace the 1-shot Commuter with an ability called Captain. The 1-shot Captain is given a list of PRs in the game and is allowed to pick one of these Roles, unaware of the owner of this role, and may choose that PRs action for the Night. The owner of the chosen PR then receives a message asking if they accept the Captain's choice of target. If they say Yes the action goes through, if they say No their PR is Roleblocked for the Night and is not allowed to take an action.
- Put in a Mailman role somewhere. The Mailman is allowed to send 1 message to a player during the Night phase through the Mod. Essentially, they PM the Mod with a message and who they are targeting, the Mod then sends the message to the target Anonymously. Not much utility but the results could be amusing.
I'm having trouble deciding what to do with the Scum Team. Right now it's a Roleblocker, a 2-shot Strongman/2-shot Ninja, and 2 Goons. The Strongman/Ninja has no real purpose with not very many protective roles in the game so I almost feel it should be removed and replaced with something else. However, I don't know what that should be. I'm hesitant to give them another killing ability with the SK already in the game but I'm not sure what else to give them that would be useful. Godfather has no place, Watcher/Tracker could work but it's an item, Thief is still possible but it would be such a hard thing to pull off, and other than that I'm not sure. Maybe go with the Thief, what do you think?
Town team I think looks good. Having a constant Doctor will help, the 2 items vendors are in place, and having 2 Masons rounds it out. Even if all the items were removed from the game I think both teams sit pretty balanced when compared to one another, even though Town has no natural informative roles ( Watcher/Tracker/cop/Etc ) but they do have the higher chance to get one as an item.
Overall what do you think? I think we're sitting in a pretty good spot all things considered.
Post by Lone_Prodigy on Nov 17, 2016 10:23:47 GMT -8
I thought the Thief was the SK? Three goons seem weak, but town has no cop or vig and item vendors are not always town-friendly.
With a four-item limit that means the Item Vendor is revealed at the end of Day 4 assuming he gives them all out at night.
I like those replacement item ideas. Maybe tack them onto the backup vendor item list since there may be a situation where the OG vendor dies D1/N1 and the backup runs out of items. Maybe the backup mailman would be garbled/backwards. Captain seems imbalanced if you receive a list of all the PRs in the game.
I think the bomb should be the first item given out. If it's given out late then it has a chance of affecting the game a lot (Gods and Men anyone?). Let's have it explode the third night it's given out? First night bomb out to X, second night X gives it to Y, third night Y gives it to Z, Z dies.
The Thief is the SK. However my reasoning behind giving Scum a Thief is because for the SK to use his Thief ability he HAS to kill his target, whereas the the Scum Thief would just steal the item and run. It still does feel weird though, you're right. Another idea is giving Town some sort of informative role, hinder it by making it 'weak' or something, and then giving Scum a counter. Maybe a Town Watcher and then a 2-shot Ninja?
Did we want to reveal the Item Vendor when they run out of items? I thought they would only be revealed if they chose their Day Command and relinquished their PR early and if they ran out of items they would just quietly turn Ordinary.
Also, thinking on the Bomb, maybe it would be better if we gave it out with the Original Vendor? Because if we have to plan for both scenarios in which an Item Vendor gives out all their items VS the vendor getting killed/lynched/relinquishing and never giving out items then the Bomb just breaks the former.
If the Vendor were to give out all their items and then the Back-Up starts, the Bomb would be given out on Night 5. Assuming the perfect scenario where the SK and Scum have successful kills each Night + Lynch, that means the Bomb would be in play with only 6 Players remaining. Add in the 3 Night Phase period for the bomb to move around and the game would end before it would ever be able to go off.
Maybe take out the 1-shot Commuter and have each Vendor only give out 3 items a piece? The bomb would still break End Game in the perfect scenario though...
Post by Lone_Prodigy on Dec 1, 2016 13:45:00 GMT -8
Some quick thoughts:
-don't like the double-voting since it's a day action and not a night one. Item use acts as a pseudo-RB by preventing PR use so we should be consistent with it. -backup items aren't really "inferior" in any way, which I think was the "twist" we wanted to go for? Mailman/redirect are better "inferior" items since they have good intentions and bad executions.
Hmm. Take out the Doublevoter and put in a 1-shot BP instead? And then put the Redirect where the BP used to be? Actually, no. Take out the Doublevoter and put the Tracker there instead?
Jailer is sort-of an inferior item. You end up both Roleblocking someone and protecting them at the same time, meaning if they picked the wrong individual they could end up saving them from a kill and they could inadvertently stop a Town PR ( like the real Doctor ). Same with Switcher, since that usually causes more headaches but I do see where you're going with that since a good Switcher can be highly effective...
1. 1-shot BP or Tracker 2. Bomb 3. 2-shot Name Cop
Back-Up Item Vendor:
1. 1-shot Redirect 2. 2-shot Mailman ( garbled ) 3. 1-shot Switcher or Jailer? With Back-ups being:
If it's alright with you, I'd like to aim for 7.5 to run this. I'm finishing up classes next semester before I transfer to a different college and I won't have the time to run or play in a game starting in February.
Once Pop is done I'll take another look at this, but if it doesn't work out we can run this during the next console generation. :p