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Post by Kawl on Apr 9, 2016 13:32:49 GMT -8
I'm currently held up at volunteering. Day start post will come in the next hour. Sorry for the delay folks.
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Post by Kawl on Apr 9, 2016 14:32:01 GMT -8
“I swear to god, as long as I’m not as useless as that Cabot asshole, I’ll be happy with my lot in life,” Ouro said as he dug a sandcastle into his portion of the sandbox. Unfortunately, he is as useless as Cabot’s asshole. Ouro, the Town doctor, has been removed from the game.
Player List: 1. SkyOdin [m] 2. Ouro [m]
3. Nin1000 [m] 4. Flame_AC [m] 5. SalvaPot [m] 6. Squidyj [m] 7. Terrabyte [m] 8. StanleyPalmtree [m] 9. Bronx Man [m]4 votes for majority.
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Post by squidyj on Apr 9, 2016 14:32:39 GMT -8
Welllllllll shit. Vote: flameac I've been going back over his posts from yesterday to try to highlight some of the things that stood out to me. He brings up sleeping, it's an easy thing to talk about as scum and maybe town will make a mistake and choose to go for it. That's true. Do you have any ideas on how to start? I am not familiar with most of the posters in this game, so I don't really know how to read them yet. I think you might be the only one in this I've played with before, besides our dear host Kawl. What do we think about a no lynch? How would that affect us reaching lylo? I don't want throw the day away though, we should be able to get some decent stuff out of it. Since we're working with such a small group, no one should have room to hide in inactivity or fluff. He persists in trying to get us to sleep instead of lynching today, he can say he was confused by Ouro's chart but I'm not convinced I believe it. So I can't really tell, it doesn't matter when we no lynch, we just have to do it once to maximize our chances? Isn't it better for us to be at mylo on day 3 then lylo? Doing a no lynch today or tomorrow would fix that. I just wanted to see how the math plays out cause it's weird with 9 people. To Squidy's point, this isn't a "I'm asking questions" defense, though it might look like it. Then without addressing his behaviour earlier he moves on to change the subject, including a statement that doesn't really make much sense. There could be cop+doctor if row 2 are the roles in the game, but then there's a roleblocker who will mess it up. Hypothetically, what do you think about the single inactive, do you think that's a viable target or would you rather stick to more active people. Personally, I think we should go for more active people purely because there's more posts we'll be able to pull from later. Also the history of his vote on Bronx Man is something that contradicts the attitude he supposes to have here. Could we get a vote count? Don't like Stanley's vote on Bronx-Man, seems random and just trying to start a train perhaps? I said I thought there was a scum between him and Bronx-Man and now I know it's Flameac
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Post by Ourobolus on Apr 9, 2016 14:32:55 GMT -8
Fucker (Kawl, I mean)
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Post by Kawl on Apr 9, 2016 14:35:29 GMT -8
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Post by Terrabyte20xx on Apr 9, 2016 14:40:15 GMT -8
This sucks, but at least we have an Idea on what was chosen in the matrix now.
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Post by skyodin on Apr 9, 2016 14:46:36 GMT -8
Well, I was going to raise some suspicion towards Ourobolus after his hammer vote yesterday, but apparently that is a moot point. However, his Doctor flip does perhaps give some possible explanations as to why he was so interested in SalvaPot's supposed slip about roles. He may have been wanting to try and catch someone who would have made a false roleclaim, or he was nervous about being discovered. I can't really speculate as to why the Mafia targeted Ouro though.
I'm going to need to go back over Day 1 again now, and see if I can dig anything new up with these two new flips in mind.
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 15:07:10 GMT -8
Welllllllll shit He persists in trying to get us to sleep instead of lynching today, he can say he was confused by Ouro's chart but I'm not convinced I believe it. Then without addressing his behaviour earlier he moves on to change the subject, including a statement that doesn't really make much sense.Also the history of his vote on Bronx Man is something that contradicts the attitude he supposes to have here. I said I thought there was a scum between him and Bronx-Man and now I know it's Flameac Okay, I'm not really sure why you seem to be tunneling in on me. So far this game, I'm the only one you've really cared to talk about besides a vote for the leading lynch candidate and a throwaway reasoning post. Your first part of the post focuses on my discussion of no lynching (sleeping, as you put it), out of all your points, this one is the most nonsensical. I made a couple of posts talking about the numbers and I tried to find out whether or not it would be good for us, numbers wise, to no lynch one of the days, never, or more. I haven't played a game with less than 15-20 people, so I don't know how the numbers work out on this. Ouro tried to make a spreadsheet, but then proceeded to confuse himself and a few others. At the end, we've all figured out that there's no reason to no lynch, mathematically, in this case. I wonder if you would be pushing me if it turned out that, instead, we could gain a day through a no lynch. Would you still consider that not helpful, because that's what I was trying to do, buy town an extra phase. You say I didn't address my behavior, but I don't recall being asked to address it. I'm happy too now though, which is seen above. My post you say that makes no sense was me referring to our primary inactive, who at that point in time I believe was Stanley, I think. I posit the question of whether or not we should focus on someone active or inactive for Day 1, and I say it's better to hit an active if we have a reasonable target. Towards the end of Day 1, I didn't want to lynch Ouro, myself, Nin, SkyOdin, or Salva. These are the people who had made some good posts and were active enough. That left me with Bronx, Stanley, Terrabyte, and you. I went with Bronx in the end for reasons I explained at the end of Day 1, but now I intend to focus on you or Stanley for your bandwagoning at the end of the day, barring a cop or doctor report about scum. I'm not going to OMGUS vote you however, I'm more curious to see what you have to say to my reasoning and what others say as well.
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Post by squidyj on Apr 9, 2016 15:23:28 GMT -8
bandwagonning at the end of the day, lol ok whatever.
How was stanley starting a bandwagon and bandwagoning at the same time btw?
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Post by skyodin on Apr 9, 2016 15:27:28 GMT -8
Alright, I am inclined to say that there was at least one of the two mafia involved in the vote for BronxMan. That hardly narrows the field down, but it is a place to start. Now, I will open up by admitting that I was involved in creating at some of the push for Bronx, even though I ended up never voting for him. He was on my reads list as scum and I later commented that the majority of players seem to agree that he was scum. That may have contributed to his lynch. Sorry Bronx.
Anyways, the first vote for Bronx came from FlameAC, who made a prod/random vote on Bronx that he ended up never moving. Flame later said that he was finding Bronx's overall behavior suspicious, however...
The second vote for Bronx was from Nin1000, and it was a prod vote.
The third vote for Bronx came from StanlyPalmtree, who said that Bronx was "the only player who has stuck out to me, which is kinda impressive considering how few posts hes made.". Immediately after Stanly made this vote, both SalvaPot and Flame AC jumped in to call it a suspicious vote, earning Stanly Salva's vote. Somewhat odd, considering that Flame had his vote on Bronx the entire game.
It was not long after this point that I made my reads list, and voiced some support for considering Bronx scum. Something I now regret somewhat.
The fourth vote was a vote from Squidyj that pushed Bronx into hammering range. It took Squidyj a long time to get back and explain his reasoning.
Soon after that, Nin1000 backed off from his vote to avoid a turbo. However, Nin1000 later re-instituted his vote because he was short on time and didn't want to remain without a vote given.
After some back and forth on the matter, Ouro decided to hammer the vote. I think he chose poorly, myself.
Now, I think the most suspicious activity on this list are the third and fourth votes: the ones made by StanlyPalmtree and Squidyj. However, the activity of SalvaPot and FlameAC during this time also seem questionable. There is a degree to which it seems like FlameAC has been trying to find a good bandwagon target. However, he accused StanlyPalmtree of trying to trigger a bandwagon as well, and that is also a possibility. There are decent odds in my opinion that one of the two was engaged in that activity.
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Post by squidyj on Apr 9, 2016 15:53:28 GMT -8
it took me a long time because I went to sleep, like a normal person who needs to sleep, use your head. cmon.
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 15:58:25 GMT -8
it took me a long time because I went to sleep, like a normal person who needs to sleep, use your head. cmon. Then why not just save your vote for later, you pushed him into the hammering zone. You could have just posted your vote and reasoning together, instead you voted and hoped to skate by on that, then people saw your drive by vote. (How do you do multiquote on this?) You did bandwagon at the end of the day. If you had someone you thought was scummier than Bronx, than your refusal to vote for someone else only shows your scumminess.
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 16:05:35 GMT -8
Alright, I am inclined to say that there was at least one of the two mafia involved in the vote for BronxMan. That hardly narrows the field down, but it is a place to start. Now, I will open up by admitting that I was involved in creating at some of the push for Bronx, even though I ended up never voting for him. He was on my reads list as scum and I later commented that the majority of players seem to agree that he was scum. That may have contributed to his lynch. Sorry Bronx. Anyways, the first vote for Bronx came from FlameAC, who made a prod/random vote on Bronx that he ended up never moving. Flame later said that he was finding Bronx's overall behavior suspicious, however... The second vote for Bronx was from Nin1000, and it was a prod vote. The third vote for Bronx came from StanlyPalmtree, who said that Bronx was "the only player who has stuck out to me, which is kinda impressive considering how few posts hes made.". Immediately after Stanly made this vote, both SalvaPot and Flame AC jumped in to call it a suspicious vote, earning Stanly Salva's vote. Somewhat odd, considering that Flame had his vote on Bronx the entire game. It was not long after this point that I made my reads list, and voiced some support for considering Bronx scum. Something I now regret somewhat. The fourth vote was a vote from Squidyj that pushed Bronx into hammering range. It took Squidyj a long time to get back and explain his reasoning. Soon after that, Nin1000 backed off from his vote to avoid a turbo. However, Nin1000 later re-instituted his vote because he was short on time and didn't want to remain without a vote given. After some back and forth on the matter, Ouro decided to hammer the vote. I think he chose poorly, myself. Now, I think the most suspicious activity on this list are the third and fourth votes: the ones made by StanlyPalmtree and Squidyj. However, the activity of SalvaPot and FlameAC during this time also seem questionable. There is a degree to which it seems like FlameAC has been trying to find a good bandwagon target. However, he accused StanlyPalmtree of trying to trigger a bandwagon as well, and that is also a possibility. There are decent odds in my opinion that one of the two was engaged in that activity. Your idea that there is at least one of the mafia is highly likely, 5 / 9 players voted for him. I guess I'm not seeing the problem in me voting for someone first? His vote started random, then his resulting behavior like his OMGUS led me to keep it on him. In my previous post in response to Squidy, I explain the people I was comfortable lynching, Bronx just happened to be the one who got chosen on Day 1. The reason I didn't call Nin out for his vote is because it was only the second vote on Bronx, on it's own it's not that significant. Stanley's reasonless vote puts Bronx close to the majority and I think it was important to call him out for it. Stanley had shown no prior interest in Bronx and so his sudden vote, pushing him within 2 to majority deserves focus. Squidy's vote which came soon after was also called out by me for bandwagoning as once again, at the time, it was a reasonless vote on the leading candidate. I agree with you on Ouro's hammer, I'd rather always let the day play out to its fullest just to keep the posts flowing, but that's a moot point now. I wasn't really looking to try and start a bandwagon, I just kept my vote on Bronx for the day, others followed, and I called out the people who voted for no reason or got the total close to hammering range.
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Post by squidyj on Apr 9, 2016 16:06:57 GMT -8
I already said why I chose not to do it, I made my vote and I went to bed. I'm not apologizing for not explaining right away and while most of the reactions were predictable bronx's reaction made me read him more as scum than I had before so I decided to stick with it.
Are you saying I said someone was scummier than bronx? when did I say that? why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Why are you consistently misrepresenting facts and information in this game? oh wait, I know why, it's because you are fucking scum.
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 16:17:01 GMT -8
I already said why I chose not to do it, I made my vote and I went to bed. I'm not apologizing for not explaining right away and while most of the reactions were predictable bronx's reaction made me read him more as scum than I had before so I decided to stick with it. Are you saying I said someone was scummier than bronx? when did I say that? why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Why are you consistently misrepresenting facts and information in this game? oh wait, I know why, it's because you are fucking scum. I don't get why you would make a vote without reasoning. It's bandwagonning at best, scummy at worst. I went and looked back at Bronx's posts since you put your vote on him and before you came back with reasoning. He posted three times, the first one, he called you out for your "Great Reasoning". Then he complained about it being Day 1 and he has no info, then said he considered you and I scummy for our votes. How did those three votes make you think even more that he was scum? I think you bandwagonned, you say Bronx's three posts made you think he was scum, but they're so devoid of content that I don't get how you can come to that conclusion. You could have chosen a different target, but because Bronx said you were scum, you got angry and kept your vote on him. Show me when I've misrepresented facts and don't try and pull my posts on the lynch/no lynch conversation as I've already addressed those. I already said I was going to choose between Stanley and you, and I think you are the best choice. Vote: Squidyj
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 16:26:09 GMT -8
Ah, apologies, on my third line it's not Bronx's 3 votes, but his 3 posts that somehow convinced Squidy he was scum. Although votes work too considering he saw he could just bandwagon and get through the day.
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Post by stanleypalmtree on Apr 9, 2016 16:31:12 GMT -8
Odin, why do you spell my name wrong every time? i wasn't going to say anything, but it just keeps happening. anyway i agree with your idea about there being scum amongst bronx's voters, probablly not both, but at least 1.
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Post by skyodin on Apr 9, 2016 16:48:25 GMT -8
Odin, why do you spell my name wrong every time? i wasn't going to say anything, but it just keeps happening. anyway i agree with your idea about there being scum amongst bronx's voters, probablly not both, but at least 1. I have no excuses, except that I probably have been reading it wrong. Also, I am bad at spelling. I am overly reliant on having someone else proofread for me. Sorry. Anyways, what I find most suspicious about Squidyj's vote wasn't necessarily his lack of immediate justification, but instead the timing. Pushing the vote to four was a big deal, since it moved the vote to being one short of majority. In that situation, it would have been easy for a member of the mafia to quickly hammer the vote and end discussion early. That is why I shied away from placing a vote on Bronx when I created my large reads list and during the subsequent discussion. I find the idea of placing a vote on someone in that situation just before going to bed to be reckless at best. Moreover squidyj, your explanation just now for why you didn't give more justification for your vote is inconsistent with the reasoning you gave yesterday. Yesterday, you claimed that you intentionally held off on justifying your vote in order to provoke more reactions. Today, you are claiming that you just went off to bed and didn't want to make a big post. I find both explanations to be plausible, but somewhat lacking. The fact that they are inconsistent though is a bit of a red flag.
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Post by squidyj on Apr 9, 2016 17:05:13 GMT -8
yes I did intentionally hold off, but it was so long because I went to sleep. If I had done it at the start of my day it might not have been so long. There's nothing inconsistent about what I said, the two statements do not compete, in fact both are true.
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 17:17:51 GMT -8
But why did you not just save your vote until you could post some kind of reasoning to go along with it? All you did was add fire to the stake at which Bronx was burned, you pushed him to the near majority and then left. What would you say now if Ouro had decided to hammer right then and there?
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Post by squidyj on Apr 9, 2016 17:31:50 GMT -8
But why did you not just save your vote until you could post some kind of reasoning to go along with it? All you did was add fire to the stake at which Bronx was burned, you pushed him to the near majority and then left. What would you say now if Ouro had decided to hammer right then and there? That's a real transparent effort to throw scum on me, you're deliberately ignoring what has just been said in this thread to go and try to shovel some scum onto me, trying to pretend that the answer to your question isn't central to skyodin's post or my post or that it hasn't been answered in the past. can we please just vote this scum out?
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 17:40:16 GMT -8
I'm throwing scum on you because I think you are scum who got caught out on a bandwagon vote.
So you're reasoning for not giving your reasoning is so you could fish out reactions? That just doesn't make sense, it's an anti-town play. You're getting more and more flippant and it's because we're not dropping this line of argument on you.
You're pushing of the vote tally on Bronx to just before hammer, in normally sized games isn't that big of a deal, but in this case it is. It only takes 5 yesterday, 4 today. You pushed it to just shy of the marker and then went to bed.
You didn't answer my question: What would you be doing now if Ouro or someone else had hammered?
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Post by skyodin on Apr 9, 2016 17:41:03 GMT -8
But why did you not just save your vote until you could post some kind of reasoning to go along with it? All you did was add fire to the stake at which Bronx was burned, you pushed him to the near majority and then left. What would you say now if Ouro had decided to hammer right then and there? That's a real transparent effort to throw scum on me, you're deliberately ignoring what has just been said in this thread to go and try to shovel some scum onto me, trying to pretend that the answer to your question isn't central to skyodin's post or my post or that it hasn't been answered in the past. can we please just vote this scum out? Uh, huh? You're getting a little incoherent here squidyj. I was actually wondering the same thing as flameac. It seems like flameac is making a logical point, I don't know what you mean by "skyodin's post" there.
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Post by squidyj on Apr 9, 2016 18:12:53 GMT -8
That's a real transparent effort to throw scum on me, you're deliberately ignoring what has just been said in this thread to go and try to shovel some scum onto me, trying to pretend that the answer to your question isn't central to skyodin's post or my post or that it hasn't been answered in the past. can we please just vote this scum out? Uh, huh? You're getting a little incoherent here squidyj. I was actually wondering the same thing as flameac. It seems like flameac is making a logical point, I don't know what you mean by "skyodin's post" there. What? WHAT? You made the post that my two points as to why i voted without explanation right away were somehow contradictory, I still hold that they are not but they were detailed right there, on this fucking page. Flameac turns around and repeats his earlier question of "why didn't you just wait and give an explanation at the same time as your vote?" because I deliberately withheld my arguments, as I have stated before, as is repeated on this page, as ANYONE who has been actually reading the thread and paying proper attention should have known at the point in time that flameac repeated his question. If you're having trouble figuring out how it's really fucking bad that flameac can't seem to keep this information straight then you're either ignorant or his scum teammate. As for hammering, in the end Ouro DID hammer. and now we know he's town, so what does that tell us about the vote? I think it tells us that one of two things happened, either both scum were on the vote already, or both scum were trying to stay out of it so it couldn't be traced back to them. Oh wait flame, YOU voted on bronx man!
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 18:40:07 GMT -8
Squidy, that entire first paragraph makes no sense to me. I repeated my question because you didn't answer it? It's hard to keep up with games sometimes Squidy, that's why I always try and make sure I know what people mean or get clarification on things, I don't think that's a bad thing. I do know though, that I've kept track of the important things. Also, it's not a good look for you to now say that SkyOdin is my supposed scum teammate when all he did was partially agree with me and ask you a question. I think the pressure of playing scum might be getting to you.
Yes, Ouro did hammer, but what if he did it earlier, like before you posted your reasoning. After all this, you still can't answer the most basic question. I don't know if scum would be willing to be all in on either side, I think it's much more likely they split their vote. Also, you voted for Bronx-Man as well. My vote on him, made two hours into the game, and later reaffirmed with his behavior is more well-reasoned than your supposed attempt to fish for reactions ever will be. At best you were hurting town by not posting reasoning, at worst you are scum trying to skate by on what you deemed an easy vote.
The more you post, the more confident I am in my view that you are scum.
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Post by skyodin on Apr 9, 2016 18:59:13 GMT -8
Okay, hold on, I think we are having some miscommunication.
Squidyj, you did answer my earlier question about the possible contradiction between your explanations as to why you didn't immediately justify your vote. However, FlameAC then raised a seperate question: how come you didn't wait until you had more time to post and explain your vote? Considering the situation your vote put BronxMan in (one vote away from a turbo and day end), we are wondering if you considered the possibility that someone would hammer the vote early while you were asleep, before you had a chance to come back and explain yourself better.
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Post by squidyj on Apr 9, 2016 19:46:23 GMT -8
then I'd explain myself the next day. First of all I thought Bronx was scum, I was wrong, Ouro was wrong, at least one other town player was wrong, but I'm not going to go around second and third-guessing the way I see the game because any player who does that winds up paralyzed, unable to trust their own judgement and unable to act, so I'd do it again and yeah, there was a chance he'd be hammered and that can work for town too. If I believe that he's scum and I leave open that window for a hammer, I leave open a window for people to have strange or lackluster or even particularly townie responses. Nin, for example, unvoted and that indicates to me that nin is likely town, he didn't have to come forward when he did and avoid the opportunity for a hammer, if he was scum he could have just pretended to be away and hoped that someone would come in and finish bronx man off. If someone had come in and hammered on the back of my vote I would have been quite suspicious of them when bronx man turned out to be town.
Which is to say that because of what I did I believe nin is town, because of what I did I reinforced my belief that bronx man was scum, even though that turned out to be incorrect.
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 19:49:23 GMT -8
I believe SkyOdin to be mostly correct in reference to the miscommunication, however I think our questions are linked SkyOdin, in that they both tug at the same central issue.
Also, I'm very troubled by something, so far, just you SkyOdin, Squidy, and myself have made any real posts today. (Stanley and Terrabyte made one, Terrabyte's was pure reaction and Stanley was agreeing with you.) Hopefully we can get more posts once we're through 24 hours. Something to keep an eye on though.
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Post by flameac on Apr 9, 2016 19:53:37 GMT -8
then I'd explain myself the next day. First of all I thought Bronx was scum, I was wrong, Ouro was wrong, at least one other town player was wrong, but I'm not going to go around second and third-guessing the way I see the game because any player who does that winds up paralyzed, unable to trust their own judgement and unable to act, so I'd do it again and yeah, there was a chance he'd be hammered and that can work for town too. If I believe that he's scum and I leave open that window for a hammer, I leave open a window for people to have strange or lackluster or even particularly townie responses. Nin, for example, unvoted and that indicates to me that nin is likely town, he didn't have to come forward when he did and avoid the opportunity for a hammer, if he was scum he could have just pretended to be away and hoped that someone would come in and finish bronx man off. If someone had come in and hammered on the back of my vote I would have been quite suspicious of them when bronx man turned out to be town. Which is to say that because of what I did I believe nin is town, because of what I did I reinforced my belief that bronx man was scum, even though that turned out to be incorrect. You're just handwaving away that it would be a pretty big issue for you? You just say that you'd explain yourself the next day? That would be a great cover for scum to hide behind, 'oh, he got turboed so I couldn't post my reasoning, I was never really sure about him though (Since he had flipped town at that point).' I just think you put yourself in a very convenient location and didn't want to stake out your position. If Bronx got hammered, then you say you were gone and that you had a sneaking suspicion he was town, if not, then you come sweep in with your reasoning and no one's the wiser. Also, you say you would be suspicious of the person who hammered, does that then mean you would have gone for Ouro today had he not been the night kill? I agree with you on Nin.
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Post by stanleypalmtree on Apr 9, 2016 20:17:48 GMT -8
well its pretty clear how flame feels, but i sure would like to hear how everyone else feels about squidyj.
also odin, apology accepted, i wasn't mad or anything, just wondering if there was any reason behind it.
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