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Post by Coppanuva on Jan 25, 2016 15:02:20 GMT -8
I can't post in the main thread but for this: "Oh how did people find the short day phases? I thought it went actually ok, even in a larger (~20) game? The short nights where definitely bad. Hard for everyone to get actions in and then for me to have the next day ready, also completely unforgiving to replacements. I think the 2/1 cycle was too relentless and probably partially responsible for the burnout" I think a 2/2 would have worked well. That being said though, burnout was inevitable for the ghosts and Roy. They had a whole second game of mafia always going on. I'll echo that. I think 2 days would've been good (or go for a weird 2D/1N/2D/2N split to give 2 days on the weekends for nights). Also burnout for scum too . We had 3 threads to monitor after Ridli went down. One was planning and all, but it's still a lot to monitor and try to plan around. Luckily we get around 2-3 weeks before next set of games starts up
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Post by Splinter on Jan 25, 2016 15:04:05 GMT -8
Yeah I'm glad this finished early, don't want anyone burned out before the new season
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Post by Sawneeks on Jan 25, 2016 15:06:19 GMT -8
I can't post in the main thread but for this: "Oh how did people find the short day phases? I thought it went actually ok, even in a larger (~20) game? The short nights where definitely bad. Hard for everyone to get actions in and then for me to have the next day ready, also completely unforgiving to replacements. I think the 2/1 cycle was too relentless and probably partially responsible for the burnout" I think a 2/2 would have worked well. That being said though, burnout was inevitable for the ghosts and Roy. They had a whole second game of mafia always going on. 2/2 probably would have worked out better. There were a couple times I almost forgot to send in my Bestow command because of how short the Nights were. It probably would have given Scum more time to prep and do what they needed to. Burnout was probably sped up for a lot of people ( especially the Afterlife Replacements ) with how much you had to keep up on. One thread alone can cause significant burnout if it moves fast enough, having 2 or 3 probably pushed the envelope to the near-breaking point.
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Post by Sorian on Jan 25, 2016 15:23:01 GMT -8
Oh right, reading scum thread now and remembered something. So Palmer had that theory that I was the volcano itself and then found this post from me in the avalon spec thread and thought I was cross-game hinting: gafia.boards.net/thread/154/spectator-thread?page=4&scrollTo=16252It was just a pun though because we were on volcano island :/ I didn't know anyone was actually going to read into that post. I'd never say anything game related outside of the respective thread unless I was 100% joking.
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Post by Splinter on Jan 25, 2016 15:24:21 GMT -8
You also made that post before role PMs even went out.
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Post by CzarTim on Jan 25, 2016 15:32:31 GMT -8
Oops sorry krawl
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Post by Coppanuva on Jan 25, 2016 15:46:16 GMT -8
To Roy's point about "Should a key role be given via RNG" and what might have happened had a less active person gotten it... yes it should have been RNG. Had a less active person gotten it town would have been at a disadvantage. A more active person got it, so all was good, but that concern can happen with literally every role. What if all of scum had been inactive players who never typed in a banish command? The entire thing would've been dealt by RNG and we'd have done even worse. It's part of the game and if you draw a hand where a key role gets distributed to someone who simply can't play it correctly you can come to 2 conclusions:
1) Your game isn't balanced well at all since the existence of 1 role ruined the entire thing (I'd argue this is not the case here. Town was doing VERY well even before Ridli revealed the Medium existed, and even moreso before Roy finally confirmed it). 2) Your game drew a bad role placement and one team is at an unintended disadvantage due to the RNG (which is the case here in my opinion). Would it have made it harder for town? Yes, entirely. Would it have been impossible to win with? Not at all. At the end of the day you're still hunting scum, which you could do even without the existence of the Medium to communicate. Scum would've behaved slightly differently as they watched their team slowly lose/win, and town's job of reading people becomes even more important there. Mafia is a game of either reading people for town, or misleading people for scum, and I don't think an inactive shaman would inherently change that dynamic).
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Post by Coppanuva on Jan 25, 2016 15:54:38 GMT -8
Oh also Dusk if you read this, sorry if it seemed like I was picking on you. It was the only thing I could think of to make it look like I was contributing without actually constantly posting too much. Wanna make sure you don't take it too personally, since you played well!
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Post by Kawl on Jan 25, 2016 16:17:32 GMT -8
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Post by xamtheking on Jan 25, 2016 16:51:22 GMT -8
3 for 3 Everything's coming up millhouse
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Post by cornb on Jan 25, 2016 19:31:03 GMT -8
Personally I don't think a role like Shaman/Medium should ever exist. Ever. Its so much work for one person. It isn't really fair.
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Post by cornb on Jan 25, 2016 19:34:07 GMT -8
To Roy's point about "Should a key role be given via RNG" and what might have happened had a less active person gotten it... yes it should have been RNG. Had a less active person gotten it town would have been at a disadvantage. A more active person got it, so all was good, but that concern can happen with literally every role. What if all of scum had been inactive players who never typed in a banish command? The entire thing would've been dealt by RNG and we'd have done even worse. It's part of the game and if you draw a hand where a key role gets distributed to someone who simply can't play it correctly you can come to 2 conclusions: 1) Your game isn't balanced well at all since the existence of 1 role ruined the entire thing (I'd argue this is not the case here. Town was doing VERY well even before Ridli revealed the Medium existed, and even moreso before Roy finally confirmed it). 2) Your game drew a bad role placement and one team is at an unintended disadvantage due to the RNG (which is the case here in my opinion). Would it have made it harder for town? Yes, entirely. Would it have been impossible to win with? Not at all. At the end of the day you're still hunting scum, which you could do even without the existence of the Medium to communicate. Scum would've behaved slightly differently as they watched their team slowly lose/win, and town's job of reading people becomes even more important there. Mafia is a game of either reading people for town, or misleading people for scum, and I don't think an inactive shaman would inherently change that dynamic). I'm going to disagree. I was sincerely ready to give up the game before Roy posted. giving us SOME sort of feedback system for lynches in the living realm. Even though ironically his posting of Ridli's flip made me give up on hunting Czar. Who was also scum.
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Post by Coppanuva on Jan 25, 2016 19:35:38 GMT -8
Personally I don't think a role like Shaman/Medium should ever exist. Ever. Its so much work for one person. It isn't really fair. It was kinda necessary for the whole dual-plane thing to exist though. I agree it was a lot of work though. I wonder how it would've turned out had it ACTUALLY been a traveling power? Make it so island was never quite sure if the Medium was telling the truth or not (since hey, could've been a scum lying), and it would've also cut down on the extra burden to spread it around more.
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Post by Coppanuva on Jan 25, 2016 19:43:13 GMT -8
To Roy's point about "Should a key role be given via RNG" and what might have happened had a less active person gotten it... yes it should have been RNG. Had a less active person gotten it town would have been at a disadvantage. A more active person got it, so all was good, but that concern can happen with literally every role. What if all of scum had been inactive players who never typed in a banish command? The entire thing would've been dealt by RNG and we'd have done even worse. It's part of the game and if you draw a hand where a key role gets distributed to someone who simply can't play it correctly you can come to 2 conclusions: 1) Your game isn't balanced well at all since the existence of 1 role ruined the entire thing (I'd argue this is not the case here. Town was doing VERY well even before Ridli revealed the Medium existed, and even moreso before Roy finally confirmed it). 2) Your game drew a bad role placement and one team is at an unintended disadvantage due to the RNG (which is the case here in my opinion). Would it have made it harder for town? Yes, entirely. Would it have been impossible to win with? Not at all. At the end of the day you're still hunting scum, which you could do even without the existence of the Medium to communicate. Scum would've behaved slightly differently as they watched their team slowly lose/win, and town's job of reading people becomes even more important there. Mafia is a game of either reading people for town, or misleading people for scum, and I don't think an inactive shaman would inherently change that dynamic). I'm going to disagree. I was sincerely ready to give up the game before Roy posted. giving us SOME sort of feedback system for lynches in the living realm. Even though ironically his posting of Ridli's flip made me give up on hunting Czar. Who was also scum. Fair point, but I cansee why that's just not possible in this setup (since the second realm would immediately lynch them). There was some confusion about it even on the scum's side, and ultimately we just kinda figured we'd be obscured on flip. I think in the future it would've been beneficial to have somehow split up the group before the first day lynch and have the 2 groups from the get-go. That could be pretty easily disguised as a Night Start type scenario and have all the deaths have occurred from that. Doing so would've given us maybe 1 phase without knowing about the AL and limited the frustration a bit there. I can definitely see how not having the feedback would be frustrating and kinda demoralizing, but there's a tricky line on how to handle that here given that scum would very easily get demoralized if they went into the AL knowing they'd be killed on sight. I mean, once KK came in I think everyone basically got demoralized on entering the AL since you would last maybe 3 phases before being killed on policy.
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Post by Bombay on Jan 25, 2016 20:14:39 GMT -8
Personally I don't think a role like Shaman/Medium should ever exist. Ever. Its so much work for one person. It isn't really fair. There should've been two. Then you'd wonder whether one was scum. Also, it could've created the potentially hilarious scum medium scenario where the player is lying his ass off about everything the dead are saying Without that possibility, all hiding the one thread did was make it harder on Roy
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Post by Retro on Jan 25, 2016 21:29:32 GMT -8
I mentioned this early on in the thread, but I'll mention it again re: Palmer/Ridli: Ridli is a real Gaffer, and a friend of mine IRL, who kindly let us use his name and avatar for Palmer's charade. So if you see Ridli on GAF, don't give him grief about this game. He probably won't know what you're talking about. (I gave him a link to the game thread, but I don't think he read it.)
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Post by Roytheone on Jan 26, 2016 2:23:51 GMT -8
To Roy's point about "Should a key role be given via RNG" and what might have happened had a less active person gotten it... yes it should have been RNG. Had a less active person gotten it town would have been at a disadvantage. A more active person got it, so all was good, but that concern can happen with literally every role. What if all of scum had been inactive players who never typed in a banish command? The entire thing would've been dealt by RNG and we'd have done even worse. It's part of the game and if you draw a hand where a key role gets distributed to someone who simply can't play it correctly you can come to 2 conclusions: 1) Your game isn't balanced well at all since the existence of 1 role ruined the entire thing (I'd argue this is not the case here. Town was doing VERY well even before Ridli revealed the Medium existed, and even moreso before Roy finally confirmed it). 2) Your game drew a bad role placement and one team is at an unintended disadvantage due to the RNG (which is the case here in my opinion). Would it have made it harder for town? Yes, entirely. Would it have been impossible to win with? Not at all. At the end of the day you're still hunting scum, which you could do even without the existence of the Medium to communicate. Scum would've behaved slightly differently as they watched their team slowly lose/win, and town's job of reading people becomes even more important there. Mafia is a game of either reading people for town, or misleading people for scum, and I don't think an inactive shaman would inherently change that dynamic). I think you misunderstood my worry. My worry is not that it would gave town a disadvantage, that is 100 % fair and would always happen in mafia games. My worry was more that it would ruin the game for the town players. If you look at earlier day phases before I claimed, a lot of townies were really not feeling this game and a lot seemed ready to just drop out. Now imagine the shaman role getting to a very low activity player or someone that had to reveal really soon. The lack of information would have continued even longer, and the frustration of the town players would have only grown. I would even think the game would have been prematurely stopped because town was just going to have no fun at all. So it was not that the win chances of town depended on the shaman, Town actually having fun in this game depended on the shaman. Besides, the shaman role falling on someone without a lot of time would have probably be absolutely no fun for that player. Either he/she would have to put a lot more time and effort in the game than they realistically can and want, or they would feel bad about giving town a huge handicap. It would probably lead to this player dropping out, which sucks for them. My worry was about players having fun, not about town their chances to win.
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Post by Roytheone on Jan 26, 2016 2:41:51 GMT -8
Scum's information advantage is SO huge that they need to be careful to tip toe around it, Blarg's overshare is almost a disadvantage. And I was annoyed at that unhelpful town PR yesterday, but laying low for a bit could work nicely in catching scum off guard (without spoiling anything I'm talking about your PR LoC) I like how this is going The lack of info is hurting them and lasting longer than I hoped, but at least they will have something new to discuss today SAVE ME DARRYL Fucking Roy is not playing to his win condition. Its "win with town" not "survive day 3" If Roy leaves them in the dark for another day I'm gonna end it, game is broken without him and I just don't care anymore I'm glad Roy claimed, the game would be rough otherwise... Hopefully now Everyone will get more hope. Better late than never! Roy wins the "most insanely cautious medium" award. Splinter, while reading this spec thread, I got the feeling you were actually annoyed with me waiting a bit before I claimed. However, if you wanted me to claim earlier, why the heck did you make me a miller? That made it a lot harder to claim.
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Post by cabot on Jan 26, 2016 2:46:05 GMT -8
yo roy wheres that bestow list
(Still kinda annoyed I just kind of forgot about that even though it probably would have revealed the bestow switching earlier than when it all came to bite me in the ass)
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Post by Splinter on Jan 26, 2016 3:11:54 GMT -8
Scum's information advantage is SO huge that they need to be careful to tip toe around it, Blarg's overshare is almost a disadvantage. And I was annoyed at that unhelpful town PR yesterday, but laying low for a bit could work nicely in catching scum off guard (without spoiling anything I'm talking about your PR LoC) I like how this is going The lack of info is hurting them and lasting longer than I hoped, but at least they will have something new to discuss today SAVE ME DARRYL Fucking Roy is not playing to his win condition. Its "win with town" not "survive day 3" If Roy leaves them in the dark for another day I'm gonna end it, game is broken without him and I just don't care anymore Better late than never! Roy wins the "most insanely cautious medium" award. Splinter, while reading this spec thread, I got the feeling you were actually annoyed with me waiting a bit before I claimed. However, if you wanted me to claim earlier, why the heck did you make me a miller? That made it a lot harder to claim. lol, I was panicking pretty badly at the start. Playing cautiously was a valid strategy, in fact it's how I originally envisioned the role being played but I had forgotten that at the time. The Miller was to leave some doubt over your claim, but the clear importance of your role would have carried you to mid-game at least, and it would take a very aggressive scum team to get you to REVEAL early. I had a lot of drop out requests at the start. 2 in the first 24 hours that thankfully agreed to wait a day phase - and seemed happier once they saw the "real" game. After that I had a lot of dropouts in the Afterlife, although they all seemed to be busy rather than frustrated(?). But anyway, all the way up to your claim I felt the Island was on the verge of a mass-ragequit, so that's why you'll see me airing some "frustrations" in this thread (and I know that's my fault, not yours).
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Post by CzarTim on Jan 26, 2016 3:32:41 GMT -8
The medium role was too important for town to ever risk a lynch. The miller part was irrelevant.
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Post by LordofCastamere on Jan 26, 2016 4:25:46 GMT -8
2 wins in a row. I'm on fire.
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Post by Coppanuva on Jan 26, 2016 7:09:07 GMT -8
To Roy's point about "Should a key role be given via RNG" and what might have happened had a less active person gotten it... yes it should have been RNG. Had a less active person gotten it town would have been at a disadvantage. A more active person got it, so all was good, but that concern can happen with literally every role. What if all of scum had been inactive players who never typed in a banish command? The entire thing would've been dealt by RNG and we'd have done even worse. It's part of the game and if you draw a hand where a key role gets distributed to someone who simply can't play it correctly you can come to 2 conclusions: 1) Your game isn't balanced well at all since the existence of 1 role ruined the entire thing (I'd argue this is not the case here. Town was doing VERY well even before Ridli revealed the Medium existed, and even moreso before Roy finally confirmed it). 2) Your game drew a bad role placement and one team is at an unintended disadvantage due to the RNG (which is the case here in my opinion). Would it have made it harder for town? Yes, entirely. Would it have been impossible to win with? Not at all. At the end of the day you're still hunting scum, which you could do even without the existence of the Medium to communicate. Scum would've behaved slightly differently as they watched their team slowly lose/win, and town's job of reading people becomes even more important there. Mafia is a game of either reading people for town, or misleading people for scum, and I don't think an inactive shaman would inherently change that dynamic). I think you misunderstood my worry. My worry is not that it would gave town a disadvantage, that is 100 % fair and would always happen in mafia games. My worry was more that it would ruin the game for the town players. If you look at earlier day phases before I claimed, a lot of townies were really not feeling this game and a lot seemed ready to just drop out. Now imagine the shaman role getting to a very low activity player or someone that had to reveal really soon. The lack of information would have continued even longer, and the frustration of the town players would have only grown. I would even think the game would have been prematurely stopped because town was just going to have no fun at all. So it was not that the win chances of town depended on the shaman, Town actually having fun in this game depended on the shaman. Besides, the shaman role falling on someone without a lot of time would have probably be absolutely no fun for that player. Either he/she would have to put a lot more time and effort in the game than they realistically can and want, or they would feel bad about giving town a huge handicap. It would probably lead to this player dropping out, which sucks for them. My worry was about players having fun, not about town their chances to win. Yeah, that's definitely true. I thought about it more from that perspective last night and that's definitely a concern there. I think in that regard it was probably not "life balanced", since it really would be an issue. I'm trying to think of other ways you could have the same effect but with less burden on the player, and it's really hard. Also out of curiosity, did it really travel to you and let you choose to take it (I gather it wasn't quite intended to if it did, since LoC was apparently supposed to be it but got modkilled instead)?
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Post by ultron87 on Jan 26, 2016 7:15:37 GMT -8
I'm of the opinion that there really shouldn't be a singular role that is that fundamental to the entire game functioning.
You'd either want to have the conduit between the two games be something that is controlled by a mod who obviously agreed to put in the effort, or it'd be something player controlled but that anyone can do. Maybe every spirit player gets a once per day use of a power that sends a message to the living thread that a mod then posts.
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Post by Splinter on Jan 26, 2016 7:51:05 GMT -8
I'm of the opinion that there really shouldn't be a singular role that is that fundamental to the entire game functioning. You'd either want to have the conduit between the two games be something that is controlled by a mod who obviously agreed to put in the effort, or it'd be something player controlled but that anyone can do. Maybe every spirit player gets a once per day use of a power that sends a message to the living thread that a mod then posts. I do actually agree with this by the way. I only included the Shaman because I couldn't figure out a better way to make the game work. It's probably the biggest example of something I included despite not personally liking/agreeing with. In hindsight, all it really needed was for the Shaman to lose AL access during the day phases. This would have stopped town relying on him so much for inter-thread communicating, and made the role FAR more sensible. I didn't think of that until late in the game, unfortunately.
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Post by zippedpinhead on Jan 26, 2016 13:20:09 GMT -8
Splinter What is your current avatar from? I swear I have seen that Island above/skull below image before and it has been driving me mad.
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Post by Splinter on Jan 26, 2016 13:49:38 GMT -8
Splinter What is your current avatar from? I swear I have seen that Island above/skull below image before and it has been driving me mad. No idea, although I agree it looks familiar. I just searched "Skull Island" and found it here: www.scaryforkids.com/skull-island/
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Post by crimsonfist on Jan 26, 2016 16:19:54 GMT -8
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Post by Sorian on Jan 26, 2016 17:39:36 GMT -8
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Post by Roytheone on Jan 27, 2016 5:06:39 GMT -8
I'm of the opinion that there really shouldn't be a singular role that is that fundamental to the entire game functioning. You'd either want to have the conduit between the two games be something that is controlled by a mod who obviously agreed to put in the effort, or it'd be something player controlled but that anyone can do. Maybe every spirit player gets a once per day use of a power that sends a message to the living thread that a mod then posts. I do actually agree with this by the way. I only included the Shaman because I couldn't figure out a better way to make the game work. It's probably the biggest example of something I included despite not personally liking/agreeing with. In hindsight, all it really needed was for the Shaman to lose AL access during the day phases. This would have stopped town relying on him so much for inter-thread communicating, and made the role FAR more sensible. I didn't think of that until late in the game, unfortunately. Honestly, I think this would have created a shitload of other problems, considering the night phases were only 1 day long. Basically requiring me to read up on the AL thread, make notes, ask/answer questions of ghosts etc. all in one day while the ghosts also needed to vote on a night kill wouldn't have worked at all, and it would made it far too important for me to be available at specific times.
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