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Post by Sophia on Aug 10, 2016 9:04:30 GMT -8
Welcome, Masons. This chat is available for you to discuss whatever you wish. As usual, please do not edit your posts in here and please do not directly quote any PMs. Good luck.
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Post by Sophia on Aug 17, 2016 11:49:12 GMT -8
Welcome to the Xbox Live party chat, Kyanrute, Sawneeks.
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 17, 2016 11:57:23 GMT -8
Hello there.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 17, 2016 14:13:14 GMT -8
I was wondering what Dusk meant in the previous Day phase when he said he had always wanted to see us play in the same game. Now it makes sense.
How are you today, Kyan?
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 17, 2016 14:39:24 GMT -8
Today, hardly even awake since it is past midnight. Yourself? I see you too caught Dusk's breadcrumb, before he announced his thing in the main thread I wasn't sure if you or Dusk had invited me here.
I find the "everyone is an ordinary" theory that is flying around interesting. I want to say it is not balanced because town has more people, but all the past times I said something like this I was wrong.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 17, 2016 15:23:26 GMT -8
Busy trying to battle a nasty cold that kept me home from work. On the plus side though it does give me time to actually sit down and play Mafia today.
I saw that theory as well and I'm interested to see who comments on it. It is a bit more on the Meta side but after hearing from multiple people how 'interesting', 'unique', and 'different' this game was going to be I wouldn't be surprised to see if this game was 90% Ordinary roles. With an item seemingly given out every Night it would make sense that there would be a lack of multiple PRs in the game in order to compensate and keep everything relatively balanced. A straight lack of PRs though? I doubt it, especially seeing as Scum have their NK and having a Town without any PR to protect itself seems unbalanced.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 17, 2016 15:26:55 GMT -8
Hmmm, a thought crossed my mind.
Seeing as Dusk isn't here with us ( and outed that he did use the Xbox but not who he used it on ), it basically puts his life in our hands as everyone else believes he is lying. If it came down to him being lynched do you think we should verify his claim of using the Xbox?
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 17, 2016 23:26:56 GMT -8
After brainstorming, I'm gonna brainstorm some more. Scum Dusk wins the prize on n0. He would not include two town members in the chat, because for any gambit to work, there must be control. No scum members in the chat, no control over it, no control over the gambit, whatever the gambit is. Something like gaining #townpoints for Dusk and the scum member in the chat seems possible. Dusk flipping scum increases the likeliness of one of us two being scum.
If town Dusk win the prize on n0, why does he not use it on himself? Was he afraid that he'd die? Seems unlikely, since he got more than moderate attention on himself on d1, scum shouldn't kill a good day lynch candidate. There is always the possibility that he simply felt that he could not benefit himself and town had he partook in the chat himself. We can't know that unless he tells us that. If Dusk flips town, we can be anything. No information is gained and we paint a target on ourselves.
If there are two scum in the Dusk-Saw-Kyan trio, the town member should be safe. This all is then a scum gambit to achieve something, why would they use the chat on a person they'd want to kill soon? If there is one scum in the trio, it is one of us. The town party is safe I feel, because the scum party of us would want to have a chance to gain #towncred via this chat. If there are no scum at all in the trio, scum know this as soon as we reveal ourselves. Us two become targets, since a chat like this can be beneficial in scumhunting. Dusk does not really benefit of the reveal, since only scum would know his true alignment, us others would have to test it by killing him. Dusk is kept around by scum to keep him on the day lynch list til the end of time.
The existence of the chat does not save Dusk I feel. Thus, is it to town's benefit to reveal the persons in the chat? We are to all others what we are to each other - unknowns. Revealing the chatting parties tells nothing of our alignment to town and should we both be town, the reveal only benefits scum. I think we should not reveal that we are the chatting parties should Dusk be close to a lynch. I wanna hear your thoughts though.
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 18, 2016 0:07:24 GMT -8
Oh and I still haven't had the time to go over your Blarg flip list, hopefully get the time to do so later today.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 18, 2016 16:06:08 GMT -8
Well at the very least we seem to be on the same page regarding Dusk's fate. While I'm grateful he used the item and gave us a Mason chat that still doesn't necessarily clear his alignment up completely. I know I told Kark in the main thread I find Dusk Town but, even with knowledge of this chat, it's still only a gut read and it's one I'm not confident in. Not to mention the scenario you mentioned of Scum knowing of this chat and simply killing us once we were found out, meaning a possible 2 for 1 trade and that doesn't seem worth it.
Although you missed a few possible scenarios:
1. Dusk, regardless of alignment, could not use the Xbox on himself. It's a theory I have that perhaps all items gained from the mini game at Night can not be used on the person that receives them and instead they have to pass on the benefits to another person. This is all based on if Dusk is telling the truth or not seeing as his item is the only one we know of so far and it's a fairly weak theory at that. This would mean that Town Dusk simply picked two players he wanted to see work together and does not know their alignments, meaning one could be Scum or they could both be Town.
2. Scum!Dusk never got the item, his Scum teammate did. Dusk lies and claims to have got the item and used it in order to appear Town and to keep heat off of his Scum Buddy who is now in a Mason Chat with a Town player. This not only keeps Dusk fairly clear in the main thread but his Scum buddy now has a Townie they can confide in while Dusk's alignment is in question. I sort of said it in the main thread to Kark but I find this gambit a little too crazy to be the situation. I haven't completely ruled it out though, sorry Kyan. :c
Dusk's lynch is starting to shape up to be an information lynch like I pictured Blarg's was on Day 1. Whatever he flips is going to influence how much we both decide to trust each other here.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 18, 2016 16:22:47 GMT -8
Oh yeah, Sophia I had a question for you. Are we still allowed to use this Chat during the night phase?
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Post by Sophia on Aug 18, 2016 16:36:59 GMT -8
Oh yeah, Sophia I had a question for you. Are we still allowed to use this Chat during the night phase? As of right now, it's open the entire time. If this changes in any way, I'll let you know.
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 19, 2016 12:15:26 GMT -8
The scenarios you described are possible in addition to those I laid out. Confusing indeed.
I am going for Dusk because there are more than 1 scenario where he could be scum. In addition, thanks to his central part to everything that has happened so far, he is very connected and thus a great lynch information wise.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 20, 2016 13:30:53 GMT -8
Well we can throw out all the Scum!Dusk theories now. That just leaves the possibility that one of us is Scum and Dusk was just going with his gut when he picked us for Masons. Or we are both Town.
Although this really doesn't help us:
kyan can you tell your scum buddies not to kill me yet
thx fam
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 21, 2016 4:29:20 GMT -8
ive passed your request over to the SCUMHQ and am waiting for a response, it would be nice if you could give me the same treatment with the shady mates of your own
I expect someone to pick the breadcrumb up tomorrow. Should it be discovered though, I don't think we should directly confirm it, because that increases the chance of scum going for us in the two-town scenario.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 21, 2016 11:07:58 GMT -8
i asked them nicely but they did not appreciate being called 'shady'. you hurt their feelings. :c
I'm expecting a good amount of players to pick up on it, although I don't know if someone will actually say anything about it or not. I'm hoping that nobody does point it out if they did find the breadcrumb as it makes our job a lot easier but...Town has been less than subtle so far, so we will see. I agree we shouldn't outright confirm it if someone brings it up but i feel like we might get a scenario where even if we don't answer our silence would be confirmation enough. Hence, I really hope someone just doesn't bring it up.
I had a question for you too, my good ol' Xbox Mason buddy. What do you think of Dusk just Scum reading you right before his demise? I had assumed he thought he were both Town and that's why he gave us a chat so seeing him read us as different alignments was a little surprising. I would ask this in the main thread but seeing as we would have to dance around the 'ha ha we're TOTALLY not masons' thing I felt it would be better to just ask here.
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 22, 2016 3:12:34 GMT -8
If the topic and the breadcrumb comes up, it might be rather clear that we are the chatters even if we do not confirm it. But still, that is a better scenario than outright confirming everything. Not giving scum a certain pr hit is only a good thing.
I can see where Dusk is coming with his read of me. Much of it is based on the drop in my activity, what I did mention at the start of the day phase. It is hard to make posts when you are too tired or drunk to do so. He also misunderstands my comment about my votes and twists it to throw shade. My own guess would be that if Dusk considered us both town during night one, my lack of activity on day two changed his view about myself. His read is both fair and unfair at the same time: criticizing the change of activity is bit of a low blow but then again, thanks to the drop in activity, there was not much else new for him to go through.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 22, 2016 18:40:35 GMT -8
Not gonna lie, I'm enjoying being on this side of this whole Xbox thing. It's actually kind of amusing watching all the theories go by. :p
I did actually want to ask you about your Splinter vote because I understand where Dusk is coming from when it comes to that one. Your vote on Dusk is understandable but I can also see why Dusk would use that against you seeing as he wasn't able to see our conversation here with our half a dozen theories and his alignment provided info for us here. Your Splinter one though...never really sat well with me. It always felt kind of safe? Like the whole Blarg and Dusk thing on Day 1 you just kind sat out of and while most of that is due to timezone differences even with the posts you did make it felt like you brushed it off.
I guess what I'm really asking is, who do you want to see flip today? The one person you think is the scummiest of them all?
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 23, 2016 2:05:35 GMT -8
I am still combining my thoughts about things and will answer you soonTM but reading through the thread, I found the way you changed stances on Dusk interesting. The circumstances are on your side though, as you switched your opinion about him at the start of the day.
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 23, 2016 3:00:07 GMT -8
Day one had a hint of a protest vote in it but mostly it was pure opinion. I sat the Blarg V Dusk out on purpose as you concluded. I have played with both and considered the following to be possible: Dusk can do silly or even nonsensical plans even when he is town and Blarg can gambit in any way imaginable, regardless of his alignment. Thus, I did not consider Dusk's argument suspicious enough to vote for him nor did I consider Blarg's lies enough of a proof about his scumminess - I wanted to see more to make my conclusions. I have no such meta reads about Splinter and he did bother me so I voted for him to showcase this.
Currently I am thinking between Salva/Splinter/Magnum for the lynch. Salva and Splinter for the actual scum, Magnum for the neutral threat.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 23, 2016 10:12:20 GMT -8
Checking in on things on my lunch break and I see this
Gave me a good laugh. Hope you're ready for a fight, Kyan. :p
Although it seems OA has found me, seeing as I'm the only one of us who didn't vote for Dusk and I don't think we have more Masons running around. Half tempted to simply clear the air and claim since he is already tempted to do so and it would just speed things along. That and I'm terrible at lying in these games, I always end up backing myself into corners and tripping over my own arguments. Case and point: Dusk Defense Squad and the Xbox topic. >.>;;;
I'm going to think on it though. If I do eventually end up claiming later today I will leave you out of it and let you decide what you want to do.
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 23, 2016 10:24:41 GMT -8
I am not against clearing the air now. There are some completely wrong ideas being thrown around about the masons that will only be used against us in the long run by evil people. Besides Oceanic mentioned that a mason did not vote for Dusk and that can be used to narrow the breadcrumb down. If we do not reveal it and if town does not pick it up and even if we are both town, we cannot be sure that scum wouldn't find it either. Also, while we become better targets for scum by revealing ourselves, we become better targets for doctors and other things and might survive or deter the scum kill away from us.
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 23, 2016 10:26:12 GMT -8
Oh but if you think that we should reveal it, let me do it. I'll ask Oceanic to name you to make sure he is not lying about anything.
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 23, 2016 10:34:42 GMT -8
...but since Oceanic kinda comes and goes, I'd have to wait until he appears so he wouldn't have time to look for the breadcrumb. Meh.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 23, 2016 10:48:47 GMT -8
Oh, I didn't think you were still up.
I'm a little unsure about having you ask OA to reveal, namely because I feel it would be better if I simply came out and confirmed it to just clear it all up instead of it devolving into accusations. I also don't think OA is lying? I've Town read him the whole game so I doubt this is a Scum plot to get us to claim and he was able to correctly guess the vote, although I suppose the last one is a bit of a toss up.
Either way I'll come forward with everything later. I have class after work and since it's the first day I don't think I will be home late and it would give me enough free time to answer questions after the claim.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 23, 2016 10:49:33 GMT -8
Also I'm typing up a response to your comment on Dusk and my thoughts on him. It's just taking time because I keep getting interrupted at work. :c
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Post by kyanrute on Aug 23, 2016 11:00:53 GMT -8
Hmm the vote does lessen the chances yes. Not that he is hitting my scumdar with more than circumstantial things, just wanted to get information since there seemed to be a chance for it. But like I realized minutes later, it would likely have to wait til the end of the day and that ruins the whole point of clearing the air. Post your things when you do, I'll reveal myself tomorrow local time then.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 23, 2016 11:40:29 GMT -8
Also, thank you for the reply. It clears up a bit of thoughts and questions I had on your Splinter vote and, more importantly, your response felt genuine.
As for my Dusk switch I have been as clear as possible with my thoughts, although I'll go through them again since I can be clearer on my thoughts of Dusk. I Scum read him on Day 1 due to his cagey replies for getting called out so early and nothing he really did that Day ever changed my feelings on him. I went for a Blarg vote instead because I felt he was acting way scummier with his pushing of the Fluff being fact, lying about bidding/winning, and trying to push that misinformation as fact as well as it being a 'Pro-Town' move. All of these moves felt like a Scum!Blarg trying to both control early-game information as well as get the real winners out in the open, which he somewhat succeed in doing. In my mind Blarg and Dusk were also connected, especially seeing as Dusk got called out for calling Blarg out on the Xbox and his whole '50/50' thing. I was so honed in on Blarg, fully believing he would flip Scum on Day 1 and we would pat ourselves on the back for a job well done, that when he flipped Town I took a step back and doubted my reads. I've already said I went back and reread all of Day 1, leading me to easing up on my reads of many people and revaluation where I stood on some folks. Dusk was one of these people. When I went back and read everything he did my gut told me he was Town, one that had gotten into trouble and reacted poorly to it, but Town nonetheless. Yet my thoughts were saying he was Scum, his poor reactions were to be caught and backed into a corner and not being able to leave it.
I still scum read him but I had softened my read on him significantly.
Then Day 2 happened. I already extensively went through my thoughts on why I think Dusk was Town with Kark but I will clear it up a little more here. Essentially it came down to two things: Dusk was Scum or he was Town.
Town!Dusk: A rough Day 1 where he called out Blarg for lying about the Xbox ( since he was the true winner ) only to end up getting heat on himself. He then comes in Day 2 and openly role claims, explains more of the bidding process, and brings the spotlight directly onto himself. He does this to, in his own words, 'help clear up confusion regarding items and the bidding process'.
Scum!Dusk: Sees Blarg is the potential winner of the item and attempts to throw shade only for it to backfire. He then gets himself into a corner, poorly responding to questions thrown his way and acts very reserved which gains many to Scum read him. He then comes in Day 2 and claims winner ( which we know to be true ) and explains the bidding process, hopefully in an attempt to not only gain Town respect but also help his Scum buddy in the Mason chat gain respect from an unsuspecting Town player. The gambit here is to gain a Townie to work with a Scum Mason and for Dusk to be uncertain enough to keep on living.
I ran through both of these theories in my head in order to see which made the most sense.
IF Dusk was Scum then, naturally, it meant my Mason partner was Scum. However, this made no sense as time went on because you ended up voting for Dusk. When he flipped Scum it would have been VERY clear that my Mason partner was Scum because they would not give two Townies a chat unsupervised. Not only that but having Dusk come forward again, right after Day 1 where he got so much heat, meant he was back in the spotlight and would most likely get lynched. Again, the second Dusk flipped Scum it would be clear the Mason chat was rigged and the gambit of 'get a Townie to trust the Scum Mason' would crumble, mostly likely with the Townie getting NKed so they wouldn't talk.
I doubted that Dusk was Scum because in order for this gambit to work, Dusk had to live. The second he flipped Scum it would have been clear it was all rigged. If he had stayed quiet and laid low I would have been incredibly suspicious, but seeing as he came forward and gained more attention I considered the alternative.
IF Dusk was Town it meant his Day 1 was him ( the real Xbox winner ) calling out Blarg ( who lied about winning the Xbox ) all without claiming his participation in the N0 game. This gained him scum reads and votes, mostly for his cagey and dodgy behavior of the subject. In retrospect this made sense, although it was handled a little poorly. Dusk was being dodgy and cagey because he was the real winner but didn't want to come forward, hence how he acted and why he still called out Blarg. Day 2 he does exactly what he wanted to do which was, and I quote, "provide information on the bidding process and items" which he believed would help 'clear up confusion' and get us to move forward.
The more I theorized the Scum!Dusk idea the more I realized how insanely unlikely it sounded. Again, Dusk has to live for that Scum gambit to work. Getting attention one oneself, especially after a Day of getting a lot of scum reads on you, is working against that idea entirely.
The unfortunate thing is, I tried to say this exact thing but without giving away that we had this chat. I hoped I had explained it will enough to Kark in the main thread but the main draw of why I thought Dusk was Town was this thread here and I couldn't reference that at all. Not to mention most people wanted his lynch because they all believed him to be lying, something we knew for a fact was false because hey, we are in the chat right now.
tl;dr I Scum read Dusk Day 1 but after I tunneled Blarg and it backfired I stepped back and reevaluated my reads, including Dusk. Day 2 comes in and since we knew Dusk wasn't a liar about the Xbox it came down to whether or not we believed he was pulling a gambit with his Scum teammate in the Mason chat. Since Dusk had to be alive for the Scum Mason Gambit to work ( since as soon as he died and flipped Scum it would be apparent that the Mason chat was 1 Town and 1 Scum ) and he coming forward to gain attention was, in my opinion, working against that idea I believed he was Town instead and was genuine with his intentions.
so this actually turned out WAY longer than I thought it would but I figure i will also post it in the main thread after I claim. I know a lot of people didn't like how I reacted to Dusk on Day 2 ( and the Xbox today ) and I want to hopefully clear it all up with this.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 23, 2016 17:40:29 GMT -8
I keep hesitating on revealing, my gut is telling me not to. At least not yet.
I want to see if I can talk OA out of it at any rate.
If nobody has commented on Dusk's breadcrumb on us then I'm unsure if anyone has actually found it yet. Kalor gave me a feeling earlier that he might have found something but I can't seem to find the post where he mentions it.
Either way, if you still feel like we should claim feel free to ask OA directly if he hasn't said anything yet, I just feel like we should hang back for a little while longer.
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Post by Sawneeks on Aug 23, 2016 20:23:32 GMT -8
Found the Kalor quoteIt just reads to me like he knows, specifically because he seems very confidant about that last part. I'm not going to ask him to elaborate, though. Just in case he did find the breadcrumb.
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